Are there any high paying Finance careers for introverts?
Hey guys
I'm an introvert and I've always loved finance and investing. I started investing ever since I was 15. When I was 16, I would play stock market simulation games in my finance class at high school and always win against all of my classmates. I'm now at the University of Michigan and I'm majoring in computer science and minoring in business/finance. I wanted to major in finance, but I didn't get into Ross school of business (undergraduate business school).
I don't know what career I'll end up with after graduating (most likely in Silicon Valley), but I'd like to focus on a mix of technology and finance. Are there any careers in the finance world that fit this?
algorithm prop trading at like DRW, Jane St, etc.
How introverted are we talking about? Asperger's or just shy?
Neither. I'm not shy at all and I'm not afraid of opening up. I just don't like interacting with people all of the time. Being with only oneself is how introverts get their energy.
Well, I think you should be fine at any finance job then. As a low level employee(out of college) you aren't going to be interacting with clients too much, but rather you will do more autonomous monkey work most of the time. As long as you aren't socially retarded you will be fine.
I used to think that I was an introvert, but then I realized that the real issue was that I actually just disliked everyone I was interacting with.
lmfao, a shitty realization to have but definitely better than not having it
+1
I can relate. I definitely am a lot more social around people I enjoy.
This is great and I can definitely identify with this. +1
Most positions that start with "Quantitative," such as quantitative analyst, quantitative researcher, quantitative developer, quantitative trader, etc.
just gotta get past the interview as an introvert. definitely not S&T, those guys tear each other apart on the desk and are constantly talking with each other. at least ib you can go grind out some models in your cubicle. but definitely look to transition out after the analyst/associate years cuz its all about connections after that.
go to some intellectual fund after that, or get a 9-5 job in actuary or risk management.
Quantitative anything is good, but the real questions is: are you smart enough for those jobs? If you could learn major programming languages for finance you're golden. just choose quant
There are multitudes of finance jobs that introverts can excel at; however, there are very few "careers" that introverts can excel at in finance. Any 16-year-old can be taught most finance jobs. What sets an individual apart is the revenue he can produce. In most cases, revenue production is based upon old schools sales--wining and dining and talking on the phone. You could be a great IB analyst, but a poor MD since revenue production is their #1 job, and you don't produce revenue/business with your resume or your talents in Excel.
So yeah, as mentioned, trading is a great place to start. I'd add finance academia would be great, too (and I actually think it's the one area where white Americans might benefit from "affirmative action" since the MS and PhD finance programs are dominated by Asians/Indians). I also think credit underwriting (for a commercial bank or a large real estate lender) would be a good thing for introverts. I'd also add in securities lawyer or some form of corporate lawyer (I've got a friend who is a NYC corporate lawyer who made $200,000 first year out of law school and is a hyper introvert).
I can't think of too many other things for a long-term career. Maybe real estate development.
I saw a post a while back about common myers Briggs personality types in finance and INTJ seemed to be the most common type. Obviously there is a wide spectrum of careers in finance, but I'd say being on the introverted side is more the norm than the exception. Heck, If we were all super extroverted, wouldn't more of us would be in sales or marketing and not a highly detail oriented, quantitative field like finance.
I don't think you need to be extroverted to be successful. Yes it may help with networking and presentations, but if you're smart and can get your point across when you need to then you'll be fine.
"Deal oriented" is why extroverts excel at finance at the highest levels. In the vast majority of cases, the top guys at firms are revenue producers--the guys that bring in the deals. If you want to be at the top of your field you will likely not be successful in financial services as an introvert. The firms train 20 somethings to do the bitch work. Introverts excel at the bitch work.
The firms have both extrovert and introvert 20 somethings doing that "bitch work". The majority of entry level finance work is bitch work anyway. Again, I know it depends on the subset within finance, but I'll put my money with the portfolio manager with the credentials that has consistently outperformed the market year over year over some guy who can talk a line of BS but can't get results. As an investor I'm not interviewing that guy or his firm to make sure he's "extroverted". I'm more interested in the track record, credentials, results, and reputation he or his firm has.
I wouldn't suggest an introvert become a financial advisor or another finance career that is sales oriented, but for a career as a portfolio manager or VP of finance at a F500, I don't see introversion being a big roadblock.
Quant jobs. As a CS guy at UMich you're qualified to go into HFT roles at most Chicago prop shops upon graduation.
Get an MFE from a Columbia, CMU, or Princeton, and you are now qualified to start developing longer-term strategies and estimating their risk/return.
If you find programming boring, that's ok. Just as long as you don't find it mind numbingly boring, like many people find finance.
+1
Is there a finance job for me (the dreaded introvert)? (Originally Posted: 04/20/2013)
I chose finance as a major because it was fun, challenging, and I've always enjoyed business and math.However, I'm starting to doubt my choice of major (which is pointless because I graduate in the fall).
Here's my quandary: I'm an introvert. You may say "well why the f**k did you pick finance." To be honest I went with what I liked and didn't think far enough ahead about jobs.
So here's a bit about me. The positive: I enjoy my course work and absolutely love financial modeling. I'm a huge Excel junky and I will build spreadsheets for fun. A job based around building models and spread sheets would be my dream job. When I'm placed in a group for an assignment I take change if no one else steps up. In most projects I'm the one who schedules the meetings, sets the agendas, and picks of the slack of lagging group members.
The negative: I'm am introvert. Despite my willingness to take charge of a group, I'd rather not work in one at all. I'd much rather work by myself in a quiet room than interact with others. I don't care much for small talk or group politics. I'd prefer to do my work and not have to interact with anyone one other than management and those I need to contact to get information.
So my question is: Is there a finance job out there where I can analyze information, build models, and write reports without having to interact with many people aside from my boss and others that provide critical information, or do I pretty much just have to face the fact that no matter what am I going to end up dealing with the awkwardness of pretending I'm an extrovert?
You're going to have to deal with people no matter what you do, so you should get used to it. Introverts are usually great at pretending to be extraverts too.
I work at a buy-side fund picking stocks (~50 billion AUM), writing research reports, and building models all day. I talk to my boss about once a week or every two weeks, and only usually talk to my co-workers during lunch. Aside from that, my only interaction with the outside world is when a management team comes in from out of town or the random sell-side analyst tries to pitch me on some ridiculous idea. I am a decent public speaker, but frankly hate it, and only learned the skill out of necessity.
I would call myself a type-A introvert. I am bold and driven, but definitely feel more comfortable alone than in groups. I love to party and let loose (Treasurer of best fraternity at party-college pretty accurately explains me), but most of the time I like to get my shit done, come up with stock ideas, build my models, and go to the gym.
You my friend, sound like a good candidate to work for a buy-side fund. There is literally a place for any smart, driven person in Finance. You don't have to work on the sell-side as a trader or in IB to succeed... the buy-side makes more money and works less hours anyway.
Thank you very much, I'll keep this in mind.
Thank you so much. This was extremely helpful. I see myself very much like the user you replied to. Very useful for my scenario as well.
Best type of places to work at if you're introverted? (Originally Posted: 10/13/2014)
I currently work as a software developer for a prop trading firm in Chicago. While I enjoy the work, I would prefer an environment that is more introvert-friendly (does such a thing even exist in trading)? I work in an open office environment (no cube walls or anything) and it's extremely distracting and noisy all day. Does anyone work in a non-open office environment these days? What type of firm do you work at?
I worked in a team with less than 10 members and was lucky to have the floor to ourselves; this was on the buy side with a 10bn HF and AM firm - so all prop. stuff. Each analyst covered a set of stocks and reported directly to the PM. This way it just happened to be introvert-friendly because you don't really speak with other analysts unless you have a question as a junior person on the desk. It was like a library.
During results season each analyst would discuss stocks with the PM and that's it really. It was up to us how much more interaction we wanted. I liked a few guys on the desk and would talk to them sometimes but most of the time, like I said, it was pin drop silence.
We had many other teams who shared other floors and never really interacted much with them; only in the lift in the mornings usually it was the usual good morning.
But I had no idea this is how it would be before I joined the desk. I've since left the firm and may be they have the floor shared with other teams. I would still say it might be worth changing yourself a bit and going out of your comfort zone.
I'm used to working in silence and sometimes I think if I manage to secure a sell-side role as a desk analyst in research it might be a bit difficult at first with traders and sales people asking you questions whilst you try to analyse and work on your numbers. But it will be fine I'm sure.
Introverts in Corp Dev/Strat (Originally Posted: 03/08/2014)
I'm an INTJ who doesn't like socializing very much. I'm interested in working in Corp Dev/Strat after I get my MBA (T15) and climbing my way up through the ladder. Is it right for me?
What did you do before your MBA? Might help us give you some insight.
And strat requires a lot of human interaction - look at any of the interviews/question threads by strat guys. You're constantly meeting with/dealing with people. Dev might be better, more number crunching, but it's still going to have a social aspect to it. And frankly, any corporate position you want to be in, the higher you go the more you'll be dealing with people on a regular basis vs sitting in front of a computer.
I'm not in Dev/Strat (or even working full time, though I have done lots of research/talked to a lot of people) so I might be the last person you want advice from. You really have to decide if it's right for you or not.
I don't work in corp dev/strat, but from my perspective and based on a couple quick searches (see URL's below), it is a role well suited to most INTJ's. I'm also an INTJ and work in a management role at a F500, so I can relate to what you're saying about not liking to socialize.
Unfortunately, you'll find that you need to work with people more and more as you climb the ladder in any department at a F500. I have to give around 8 presentations per month in my current role and would say in total I spend at least 50% of my time in meetings, presenting information, and training my reports. My advice to you would be to focus on the work you will be doing and worry less about the time you might have to spend communicating the results of your work. If you think you'll enjoy the analytical side and content of the job, you more than likely wont mind having to present your work every now and then and/or work on a team.
I've found that people in the workplace care less about how sociable and "fun" you are, and care much more about how knowledgable you are and the results you can bring to the company. And even though I've always hated public speaking with a passion, it can start to feel very natural when you're speaking on a subject you know well and it can actually be rewarding to feel like the "expert" in the room so to speak or getting the chance to showcase what you've done. Plus it gets you out of your chair and mixes the day up a bit - I mean even though you're an introvert, would you truly enjoy staring at a computer screen every minute of the day?
http://www.personalitypage.com/html/INTJ_car.html http://www.16personalities.com/mobile/intj-careers.html
I actually worked as a Software Engineer pre-MBA.
Is there any position in corporate finance that would suit me?
I mean, working in controllers/some accounting function would probably be more for an introvert. But regardless of what you do, if you want to move up the ladder you'll ultimately end up having to deal with other people on a regular basis.
I'll also add that accounting and controllership is generally a much better fit for an ISTJ personality. If you're strong on the "N", typically a more analytical, forward looking career is more suitable.
Can you expand on why "sensing" is more important than "intuition" specifically as it relates to acct/cont? Just curious to learn a little more about what makes a good controller/how to be good at that job.
People with a sensing personality interpret things for how they are, whereas an intuition personality looks to recognize underlying patterns in the information and would also tend to be more interested in talking about future possibilities, opportunities to change processes, and would generally look at things with more of a creative eye. Sensing = reality and facts, Intuition = future and possibilities
Accounting can involve some strategy and forward looking analysis, but a large portion of the work involves reporting and analyzing historical information. Someone who is say 60% intuition and 40% sensing could be an ok fit for accounting, but an individual who is 80-95% intuition would likely get bored very fast.
I'll just add that having both is helpful for being a successful controller, as its important to have the ability to recognize patterns and trends behind information as well as having the ability to see the big picture, but typically someone who leans more towards the sensing side would find the field more satisfying and rewarding.
Awesome, thanks for the explanation!
Interesting.
Do any of you know the perfect jobs (after MBA) for an INTJ?
I think it's entirely dependent on the group. That said, most F500 employees have a better work/life balance, so the personalities are more aligned with "normal" rest of the world than IB/MC. There are definitely some who enjoy socializing, and then some who enjoy spending time with family.
Not a "people person"... (Originally Posted: 08/24/2016)
HI guys:
what career in finance /ivestment is good for people who are not "people persons"? Are any areas of private equity (such as distressed /special sits) still reachable? What about HF? In general, where might people who are not "people persons" find their best fit?
Thanks
Generally quants and the like, researchers etc tend to be less social. However, if you can be social you will always have a better time of any job because you're always selling to someone. I would work on people skills as much as possible. The only really "non social" environments tend to be extremely quantitative and theoretical.
really, that's a bumber..what about investment research at smaller funds?
What makes you 'not a people person'?
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