WSO Podcast | E248: Exaggerating Hours - Intern Happy Hours | Weekly Wrapup
WSO Weekly Wrapup - Sign Up for the Newsletter Here
Topics this Week:
0:00 Exaggerating Hours
7:45 Intern Happy Hours
WSO Podcast:
Resources:
WSO Podcast Episode 248 Transcript:
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:00:04] Welcome to the WSO weekly wrap up where I talk with my team about the five most trending discussions in the Wall Street Oasis community. Enjoy! All right. Everybody, welcome to another episode of The weekly wrap up. It is June 1st, 2023. This week we're just talking about a couple fun threads in the forums over the last week or two. Matt, go ahead, kick it off.
Matthew: [00:00:28] Sure, got two funny ones here for the audience this week. Let's start off with the first one here. First trending topic was line about hours worked. We had one member of the forums pounding the table here saying that he's been mentioning this a few times now and asking the community, can we please as a whole stop line about our hours worked? So I'd love to kind of get your thoughts on this. You know, obviously investment banking is known for or is notorious for having long hours, but is there really like all truth to it? People throw around numbers upwards of 100 hours per week. Is that something that's the norm? So Pat will kick it off with you. What are your thoughts about people lying about their hours worked specifically in investment banking?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:01:05] I definitely think there's some inflation going on in terms of people like artificially inflating their numbers. But part of it is you may be in the office for 90 hours in a week but typically you're working about 70 of those because you're waiting for turns. You're kind of messing around in the bullpen going to lunch, going to coffee when you're when there's downtime. So it's rare that you're working 90, 100 hour weeks where you literally aren't like getting up and stuff like that.
Matthew: [00:01:30] So I think you hit it like hit the nail right on the head there in terms of like I think people factor in what they consider downtime as actual working time. So people get that confused. And I've had this thought many times. I say to myself if I'm sitting here and I put in let's just say a ten hour day. I don't think it's foolish to think for ten hours every single minute there you're pounding the keyboard and moving that mouse and just going nuts. That's I think that's unrealistic times. I'd say, Why pull the full ten hour day? I think it's not realistic, but I think that's probably what's happening a lot in investment banking. There's no way you're doing 12 hours, 10 hours a day, every single day and have like workflow where.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:06] It just does happen.
Matthew: [00:02:07] It does, I think it's probably cyclical. It's not going to be the norm, right? And when I say cyclical, I mean like deals on the desk. It's just a busy time. Yes, you will have your hours peak up. But I think people have this expectation or this thought that every week is going to be 100 hours per week and you're just kind of getting grind to the bone. I haven't at least seen that. I haven't heard of that actually occurring at least week in, week out for a full year. Nabil, have you seen that? What are your thoughts on.
Nabil: [00:02:33] Nah, didn't think so. It's just like few weeks when there's live deals and stuff. You're probably going to have like huge hours for like other than that but then people like to exaggerate too. I've been working hundred hour weeks for like so long and all that but then in reality it's like a few weeks you have to put in those ads. But others, idea there you're not doing work. Like Pat said, sometimes you even tell it not work as much.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:02:58] Yeah, I'll give you an example. Like when I was working at Rothschild and the restructuring group. Pretty sweaty group back in 02 to 04 which is really busy time for restructuring. So we had naturally and like so we had a ton of live deals. I worked with an MD who was a workhorse did really well for the firm but he would be up to like three four in the morning turning comments and like expecting you to be there. So with him.
Matthew: [00:03:24] You mentioned Pat you slept under the desk a few times.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:03:27] Oh yeah. Had to turn the phone up and then would actually go sleep on a couch in the like, put my head down for an hour and just like try to keep the phone really loud so it would wake me up. I'd run over to the phone but that was like I think my longest day was like a 41 hour day. So it was like two all nighters in a row and this is over two period. And then I did but on a hint just a handful of times like 30 plus hour days. So like those were the worst times. And his live deals like we had to turn something, get something out. But you know, the six days a week on the weekends working eight hours per day was pretty normal. So you could pretty easily hit 80 hours at least in the office. 80 hours and then you're kind of delusional. You're not that fast either when you start getting sleep deprived. So yeah, that's the other thing is like it adds to it. So I think there are some groups out there where kids are actually in the office for 90 plus hours over 90 to 100 hours a week like for.
Matthew: [00:04:32] Yes, well again but again their office it's office time though, right? I think that's the main difference like I have my friend, he's a banker. He'll spend time but I'll get messages or pictures from him, snapchats. And they're just all chilling in the bullpen doing nothing. It's like 4:00, like markets closed. It's 4:30 and they're still at the office. They have to hang there for a bit but I know they're all screwing around. They got a beer or two on their desk like they're just all relaxed, hanging out.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:04:52] I think now more than 2020, 2021 when deal was deal flow was like insane. People were actually like doing shit and like it was actually insane. Like they literally were just working like there was no downtime versus like how when deal flow is slower. And yeah banks have had a lot of layoffs. Like on the show we've mentioned plenty of layoffs. But there tends to be when it's pitching there's a little bit less urgency and that stuff.
Matthew: [00:05:23] And there's one comment on this thread specifically that I liked and I think it kind of summarizes it perfectly. There's at the end of the day, there's going to be some people that like to brag and inflate their number of hours and they treat it like a badge of honor and I think that's just something so specific to like investment banking or even just high finance roles where people are proud to say. Oh, I work 90 hours this week and we all have like a smile on our face, like it's this badge. But I think if you just like take a 5000 foot approach to that it's like well, why are you so happy? You just worked like 90 hours. Like yes, you're getting paid well.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:53] And I think it's because it's like, Oh, look how strong.
Matthew: [00:05:55] The prestige I think It's just the…
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:05:56] No, it's like, look how tough I am, I can do this. You guys are all like it almost makes people feel like they're going through a boot camp of some sort and like look I can handle it. And I'm so tough and so a little bit of that. I think there's been a lot of people asking like, please, can we kill that part of the culture? Because it leads to kids that go through that and and puff their chest out because the hours end up becoming associates and VPS and MDS that do that to the analysts. And that's why there's attrition problems in the industry.
Matthew: [00:06:25] Yes, exactly and or guess on that point there. And I don't want to spend too much time on this topic but to that point there where it's if they just there's some people that just because they had to put in the time at the junior ranks maybe they had a really poor manager, poor VP, or it's just because they had to go through it. They're going to make someone else go through it now not realizing, well you know what? Okay, I had it bad. It's not fair that I had it bad. But that's the toxicity that exists where it's like if that happened to one person well it's like well now I got to make sure this happens to someone else because I went through it and that's where that I agree. That has to hopefully stop. And to the point there I think I brought this up to you. Pat, when we had a call with an individual earlier this week. There's this like preconceived notion on the industry that could be at toxic at times and think it's at that point there where again it's just something where people experiences they experience it and the analyst associate days when they become a VP and MD they're going to just pass that on realistically.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:20] They're not going be able to hang on to their Gen Z. It's just not, they're not going to deal with it. People are talking about quitting on the forums. We saw one guy, he's like I'm quitting after one day. Don't know if it was a joke.
Matthew: [00:07:30] But or even like a half day it wasn't there or something like that. Like he spent a few hours in office and was just like, I'm out of here.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:07:35] You were like setting up your computer too stressful and stuff like that.
Matthew: [00:07:40] Yeah, exactly. But anyways, guys that's a great topic there. Let's move on to the next one here for the sake of timing. This next one, I'm actually I got a couple chuckles reading this one here and it's perfect timing given that it's intern season. I've been seeing a lot of the meme accounts out there starting to post about intern season and all the funny jokes about interns wearing different outfits or just the way they operate being in office. So this thread here is all about what drinks to order during happy hour as an intern. So Nabil, we'll kick it off with you. Going to a happy hour. What are your thoughts on this? Is you know, should people be keeping it under control in terms of just the drinks they're ordering.
Nabil: [00:08:16] I say Just yeah. Just order some beers, hang out, chill. But then yeah I mean up to you sometimes you want to just get smashed so.
Matthew: [00:08:24] Yeah, I think yeah.
Nabil: [00:08:25] Yeah.
Matthew: [00:08:26] You got to be on the happy hours. Definitely think you got to be careful with it on the over drink think that was some of the themes that people were mentioning was. Some people are saying your drink of choice does is going to make an impact or in terms of how people look at you or think about you in a separate way. But then inversely is also a fair amount of people that are just suggesting drink whatever just don't over drink. They keep it under control. Definitely try to keep things in check because you're going to have some eyes on you and the last thing you want is to make a joke of yourself.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:08:56] But there's been tons of stories of people losing potential offers and stuff like this because they just go overboard and start saying ridiculous stuff and thinking they're smoother than they are.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:07] Because you're a person who. Yeah, if you're a person who has won then maybe has 2 or 3 thinking it's not a big deal. You maybe want to just drink a club soda keep it. Definitely try and wait till after hours once you're out with your buddies or friends.
Matthew: [00:09:26] Yeah, exactly. That's what would be my suggestion. And there's some funny comments here. People saying like don't order like a long island iced tea or don't order a vodka Red Bull. And you know what? I agree with that. Be honest like you might be rubbing shoulders at the bar with like an MD an older individual. They it's just as dumb as this may sound. There's probably going to be like that preconceived notion of oh, this person is so childish like a long island iced tea or or a vodka Red Bull. It's like just get a normal drink. Or to your point just get a club soda and just hang out where they're not trying to attend.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:09:59] What would be a normal drink, would you say? Like the…
Matthew: [00:10:02] I would do just like a vodka soda. Keep it simple, vodka soda.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:06] Vodka club, vodka tonic? Like that? Not like you're not going to have like stinky bread like whiskey breath or anything like that.
Matthew: [00:10:14] Yeah or like go to a happy hour and start ordering shots. That's like another no to do again. Like, save that for. I think the main takeaway here is for interns don't get too caught up in hearing about a happy hour and drinks and thinking it's a time to let loose. Definitely still treat this as like a networking or like a professional event, times to get loose and have fun. Say it to your friends late at night. Meet up with them for drinks 9, 10:00 at night. That's when you dive into the shots. Definitely not a happy hours with your friends.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:10:42] It doesn't mean that you should be like talking about work while you're there. Like try to keep it more casual the topics of conversation. So when we say networking it's not like, Hey, let's talk about interview questions and like okay, who's offering what and pay and all this stuff. Like try to keep it more casual talk about your interests. Talk about more sports outdoors.
Matthew: [00:10:59] Yeah, whatever is going on. Just in terms of the networking aspect referring to like the professional tone of it like meaning you're not going to act like a lunatic. People are always going to have an eye on you if they're not zoning in on you. It's just so they know what's going on. They're seeing things, they're hearing things. So it's just about keeping that professional tone at all times.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:11:20] Know your limit If like you're a mess after one drink don't do it especially if you're on an empty stomach. You're going to a happy hour. You haven't eaten anything. Be careful if you can put down ten drinks then yeah, sure. Have 1 or 2.
Matthew: [00:11:36] And one thing I just thought of and this is an interesting thought I think is where it's like as an intern you may think I got to present myself in a respectable manner to senior people at the happy hour but don't let your guard down as well. If you're like in a group of interns there's like 10 or 12 people and you think, Oh, just amongst the interns. We could talk about certain things or drink certain things. Yeah, still don't let your guard down. Like at the end of the day investment banking industry is a competitive industry, right? There's only so many seats that a firm is hiring. There's only so many return offers that they're going be able to provide. Then even just as you do progress in the career there's naturally going to be less and less seats available. So it is a very competitive industry. And what I'm trying to get at is like definitely don't let your guard down. Think if it's just the interns left here at the happy hour could maybe you know, we could do some shots it's just us.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:19] Or you could say something inappropriate that rubs someone the wrong way.
Matthew: [00:12:21] People, It's competitive and that will get back to you. Yeah or just again it's a very competitive industry. And so it's just again you do want to just make sure when it's with that work. Just try to keep that professional tone especially with the happy hours because that's where things could definitely get a little bit out of control or at least we've seen things get a little bit out of control. And I've heard some unfortunate stories as a result.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:12:45] Where you can actually let loose as the happy hours that we host around. Those are pretty safe because it's people outside your job and outside your colleague at other banks and stuff like that. So another college kids trying to network. So it's a good place to if you did get bombed there wouldn't be the end of the world.
Matthew: [00:13:04] But here we'll leave the call on this I don't know putting you on the spot here a little bit. What was your favorite happy hour spot in the city in New York? When you were working there If you could remember a spot it might be putting you on the.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:13] Yeah, well we know for so we've been doing like fifth and mad for a long time.
Matthew: [00:13:19] What about your Rothschild days?
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:13:22] Blue is a good one. Like Laurie it's like a again, a dive bar really casual but more like be more be for people like after I know like Murray Hill has. Much like the banker dive bars but it's a little bit more of a scene. Scene not as much of a like place you'd go with colleagues or whatever to chill conversation. So yeah.
Matthew: [00:13:50] All righty. Well let's, we'll keep this one short and sweet. I think these are some funny topics. Great for the intern season that's rolling around right now. So we'll be back next week. Guys, with some more interesting trending topics from the forums.
Patrick (CEO of WSO): [00:14:01] Yeah, maybe some intern tips to help you guys survive. Talk soon. And thanks to you, my listeners at Wall Street Oasis. If you have any suggestions whatsoever, please don't hesitate to send them my way. Patrick@wallstreetoasis.com and till next time.
or Want to Sign up with your social account?